Grammys CEO Harvey Mason Jr. on variety, streaming, and AI

Right now, I’m speaking with Harvey Mason Jr. He’s the CEO of the Recording Academy, which is the nonprofit group that places on the Grammy Awards — probably the most prestigious awards in music — and runs the MusiCares charity, which helps artists in want. Harvey is a captivating man — as a musician and producer, he’s labored on tasks with Future’s Youngster, Britney Spears, Michael Jackson, Women’ Era, and extra in addition to produced the music in films like Pitch Excellent and Straight Outta Compton. 

Harvey’s had a variety of work to do since he began as CEO of the Recording Academy in January 2020 — his predecessor was ousted simply 5 months into the function in a swirl of scandals, and the Grammys — together with the Emmys and Oscars — had been going through a reckoning with huge race and gender inequality within the awards. On prime of all that, the music business got here crashing to a halt through the covid-19 pandemic, as reside concert events and awards exhibits stopped taking place, making MusiCares extra necessary than ever. 

So Harvey’s been busy these previous few years. Now, the world of music is having a second, with among the largest excursions ever and a wholly new crop of rising main artists. The 2025 Grammy nominations had been simply introduced, and you’ll see it within the record: newcomers like Chappell Roan and Sabrina Carpenter have been nominated for Album of the 12 months proper alongside Beyoncé and Taylor Swift. 

If you happen to’re a daily Decoder listener, you already know that I’m at all times saying to look at what’s taking place to the music business as a result of it’s a preview into what’s going to occur to each different artistic business 5 years from now. The Grammys and the Recording Academy aren’t any exception.

For the previous 50 years, CBS has paid an enormous payment to the Recording Academy to broadcast the Grammys, and the Recording Academy takes that cash and makes use of it to fund issues like MusiCares and foyer for laws that protects artists’ rights. This isn’t a secret — you’ll hear Harvey lay all of it out bluntly. The Grammys are the place the income comes from.

That every one labored in an period the place conventional TV networks had cash to spend and commanded an enormous quantity of consideration — however that period is over. Harvey lately determined to transfer the Grammys deal to Disney beginning in 2027, which won’t solely deliver the present to ABC but in addition doubtlessly to Disney Plus and Hulu. Dwell TV is more and more pushed by sports activities and awards exhibits just like the Grammys, so I needed to know the way Harvey was fascinated about this deal, what the potential of streaming distribution would imply for the present itself, and the way a lot he thought the Grammys wanted the status and model energy of an organization like Disney versus the broader distribution of one thing like YouTube.

We additionally talked concerning the Grammy Awards themselves — what the classes are, how the winners are chosen, and who these winners get to be. That’s been Harvey’s largest challenge, really: the Recording Academy simply utterly requalified its pool of voting members for the Grammys as a part of a yearslong effort to herald youthful voters and extra ladies and other people of shade. 

On the identical time, the web means the very thought of music genres has been getting blurrier and blurrier for over a decade. I requested Harvey to outline “pop music,” and also you’ll hear him suppose by the reply. I additionally needed to know the way Harvey’s fascinated about fandoms and stan tradition within the context of awards which might be speculated to be about recognizing artwork, not simply reputation. 

And naturally, Harvey and I additionally talked about AI, which is poised to disrupt nearly each artistic business and which has already precipitated main lawsuits within the music business. You’ll hear Harvey clarify that he’s not a reflexive AI hater and that he thinks there’s a spot for a few of these instruments in music manufacturing — actually, he made the most important choice to permit music made with AI instruments to be eligible for the Grammys. However like many different individuals we’ve talked to, you’ll hear him tout the irreplaceable, irrepressible advantages of human creativity — and also you’ll additionally hear him admit he’s nervous and that sorting it out is all going to be complicated and troublesome.

I’ll be sincere with you — that is certainly one of my favourite Decoder conversations shortly. I like speaking concerning the music business, and Harvey was open to considering by a variety of these points out loud on the present.

Okay, Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr. Right here we go.

This transcript has been flippantly edited for size and readability.

Harvey Mason Jr., you’re the CEO of the Recording Academy. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks, Nilay. Good to be right here.

I’m excited to speak to you. As you may know, I’m obsessive about the music business. I feel being attentive to the music business is one of the simplest ways to foretell what occurs to each different artistic business 5 years from now. You clearly have a deep perception into that. On prime of that, we’re speaking every week earlier than Grammy nominations come out, so I’m at all times interested by how that works and the way you’re fascinated about that course of. The Grammys are such an necessary a part of the cultural calendar yearly.

And we now have to speak about AI. There’s simply an infinite quantity of AI. I really feel just like the readers may throw me off a ledge if each Decoder isn’t about AI. Or if I maintain going, they may throw me off a ledge. We’ll discover out.

Let’s begin with the fundamentals. You’ve been on this job as CEO since 2020. There was a giant shakeup within the Recording Academy. There was the lockdown. The music business hibernated for a minute. All of us did a variety of Zoom recordings. Now we’re again into huge excursions. There’s a brand new period of stars rising. Let’s begin with the very fundamentals, although. Inform individuals concerning the Recording Academy and its participation within the music business.

Nicely, it begins with our present, and most of the people know us from the Grammys present. We’ve been doing the Grammys present for 66 years. I’ve been doing them since, as you stated, 4 years in the past because the CEO. The Grammy present celebrates music, lifts creators, and showcases all of the totally different genres of music. The Recording Academy produces the Grammys and generates income from the present. We use that income, paid by CBS for a licensing payment, to [support] all our packages all year long. So it’s advocacy, preventing for the rights of music individuals, and speaking about AI. We’re doing a ton of stuff in that house: ensuring human creators are protected and different copyright mental property protections that we’re engaged on. We spend thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of {dollars} yearly advocating for the rights of music individuals. In order that’s the one space.

The opposite space is a philanthropic group that’s throughout the Academy known as MusiCares. MusiCares is the give-back group for anyone who’s a musician. You don’t should be a member. If you happen to’re an expert working within the music business and also you need assistance — if you’re sick, you’re going through a drug habit, a psychological well being disaster, crashed your automotive, or somebody broke in and stole your guitar — these are issues that MusiCares takes care of. And once more, thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of {dollars} yearly. Throughout covid, we gave $50 million in assist to music individuals who wanted assist. Then we do loads by our museum, like training and preservation of music, ensuring the following technology of youngsters is uncovered to music. And if I didn’t have an instrument in my hand or we didn’t learn about all of the totally different genres of music, I wouldn’t have had a profession. So, [we’re] ensuring we do a variety of work by that. And that’s what’s funded and financed by our present and our efficiency. That’s form of the construction of the Recording Academy.

That’s actually attention-grabbing to me. You described some crucial philanthropic work. I consider MusiCares as a stabilizing drive within the music business. There isn’t a terrific social providers internet in america. Touring musicians don’t have common jobs, and that gives important stability for these people. There’s loads there that I feel is necessary.

You’re being very open that the income comes from the present and from a licensing cope with CBS to distribute the present. We’ll discuss in a bit bit about the place that deal goes and the way it’s altering, as a result of the Academy simply introduced it’s leaving CBS in a pair years, however let’s stick to the current day for a minute.

If I have a look at that within the broadest attainable means, CBS is paying for a tv present, and that TV present is paying to offer important stability to touring musical artists. That could be a bit bizarre. Does it ever strike you that it’s not all completely aligned?

No, it really strikes me as being extremely aligned as a result of the thought of the present is to profit creators. Even simply on its face, the present itself, we all know the financial impression the present has on creators, songwriters, producers, and engineers. All of the ancillary or tangentially related individuals who work in our business, all of them get a elevate from our present. The streaming goes up, the consumption goes up, and the power to tour goes up. In order that helps the artistic group. After which all of the income that we create, all the income that we put into it comes from that present. The main drivers for income for the Academy are the present, different Grammy Week actions, ticket gross sales, and sponsorships, all of which actually occur throughout Grammy Week. So, all that cash goes again into serving the group.

For me, the one factor that’s a bit bit misaligned is the lack of understanding that the artistic group has about why we do the present and that we even do these different issues. Lots of people simply suppose, “Oh, the Grammys are simply the present.” And I spend a variety of time and vitality — and we’ve received to do a greater job of this as an Academy — letting creatives, artists, and producers know the explanation that this present is so necessary is as a result of it creates a bunch of cash. I hate to be so crass, however it’s money that we will use and deploy it again into our music group. So the higher the present is, the higher the scores are, the extra money we will generate from that present, the extra money that comes instantly again into our business.

That’s a part of the explanation I requested the query that means. I notice it was fairly blunt. However that concept that the present — which is a defining broadcast tv manufacturing — is the factor that stabilizes the music business, and the way in which that it stabilizes the music business, I feel, is a bit opaque to most individuals.

It sounds prefer it’s opaque to a few of your members.

But it surely additionally looks like a factor you possibly can poke at and say, “Is that this the way it ought to be structured?” And so I’m curious: You’re new within the function; clearly, you’ve been by a variety of change. I wish to ask you concerning the TV facet of it, proper? I think about you might have some perspective on the concept broadcast tv is a wealthy income since that’s altering as effectively. However is that this the way it ought to be structured? If you happen to might change that, would you wish to diversify that income in any respect?

A thousand p.c. That’s certainly one of my massive objectives for my time right here on the Academy: to be sure that we’re not so reliant on simply TV. Having stated that, we’re exploring a variety of totally different alternatives and easy methods to greatest make the most of the model whereas nonetheless supporting music individuals and doing issues inside our mission. We don’t wish to simply go promote espresso mugs or simply do totally different random issues. We wish to be sure that it’s on model, it’s on mission, and it stays probably the most coveted award as a result of it’s our friends voting for our friends. So, we wish to be certain that we maintain that in thoughts. And it’s received to be part of no matter we do to increase it. I’d love to speak about misalignment; I’d love to seek out an extra strategy to generate a bunch of cash and sources that we might use for our group. However proper now, our cope with CBS is the factor that strikes the needle probably the most for us and permits us to have the utmost impression inside our group.

Yeah, let’s come again to that in a minute. Let’s simply proceed on how the group is structured for one second. How many individuals are on the Recording Academy? What does the enterprise appear like?

On the workers facet, roughly 300 individuals between our totally different associates. As I stated, it’s the Academy, it’s the Latin Academy, the [Grammy] Museum, and MusiCares.

These 300 individuals — they’re distributed equally. How many individuals work on MusiCares versus the present itself, for instance?

It fluctuates, however the majority of the individuals work for the Recording Academy. Roughly 200 individuals on the Academy, after which some cut up between the Latin Academy, the [Grammy] Museum, and MusiCares.

How many individuals are spending all of their time simply engaged on the Grammy Awards yearly?

Zero. That’s a seasonal effort. That’s one thing that we do. It’s a six-month focus. We’re at all times fascinated about the present, and we’re actually directing a variety of our efforts in the direction of the outcomes that may occur on the present — however the present manufacturing could be very particular to some months of the 12 months. The remainder of the 12 months, the group’s engaged on awards, on membership, on advocacy, on all of the issues that I talked about all through the Academy. And we now have a terrific workers: a DEI division, Individuals and Tradition. There are a variety of totally different departments which might be targeted on ensuring that the Academy can have that impression and that we’re rising the precise membership. And [if] you discuss concerning the awards and our potential to monetize our mental property or our Grammys by a present, [then] we now have to have the precise awards. So you must have the precise awards division fascinated about that.

You’ve received to have the precise membership division as a result of, with out the precise members, you’re not going to get the precise outcomes. And to be able to keep related, we now have to have related members. So we’ve simply gone by a membership overhaul; a hundred percent of our members have been requalified. Now we have 66 p.c of our members who’re all new throughout the final 5 years. We’ve simply added 3,000 new ladies voters. We’ve received nearly 40 p.c of individuals of shade. These usually are not the numbers that we had 4 years in the past. So we’re all very proud as a workers and as our elected management concerning the work that’s been accomplished to vary our membership. Which then, after all, modifications the awards, modifications our present, and modifications our potential to generate income.

It’s attention-grabbing. I interview so many tech CEOs on this present, and I ask them what their merchandise are and the way they’re structured to make these merchandise. They offer me solutions which might be broadly acquainted. Now we have a design group, we now have an engineering group, we’ve received a go-to-market group.

Your product is the awards, proper? It appears very clear simply speaking to you for the primary 5 minutes right here: you’re very targeted on the Grammy Awards as a product. And what you’re describing is that we want the precise members to vote on these awards, after which we want the precise group members to determine what these awards ought to be. So, in the long run, after we placed on a TV present, it’s the precise record of awards, and we come to the outcomes that individuals need.

How a lot fiddling do you do with that 12 months to 12 months? As a result of I feel the worth of the Grammys is that it’s an establishment. So some issues have to remain the identical, and a few issues clearly have to vary, as you’re describing. How a lot do you consider that stability?

I give it some thought consistently, to let you know the reality. And “fiddling” is a nicer means, or possibly a extra playful means, of claiming it, however it’s actually the evolution of what we do, an iteration round the whole lot on the Academy. And that has been a giant space of focus for me and my administration group over the past 4 years as a result of we’re 66 years outdated. It’s an iconic establishment, if I might say so. And it means loads to lots of people, together with individuals within the music group, but in addition music followers. So we wish to be respectful of what that’s and what it has been. However for me, we can’t afford to be stagnant. Music strikes so quick, and also you and your viewers / listeners know expertise. The way in which individuals are consuming music and artwork is evolving so quickly that we now have to evolve as a company.

So I spend a variety of time considering: How can we regulate? How can we pivot? How can we see across the nook? What’s taking place subsequent? So a variety of that work, I’ve to say, comes from our membership as a result of the membership actually submits the modifications. They submit proposals. What are we going to honor in music this 12 months? How are we going to title this new class? What’s the nomenclature behind this style of music? And the explanation it’s so necessary is that the members are those that know. They know higher than I do, they know higher than a variety of the workers as a result of our members are music professionals. So they may hear one thing within the new style that’s developing and be like, “Oh, you guys aren’t catching on. Now we have to honor this music.” And that’s how we proceed to perpetuate excellence in music so we will showcase various things. It’s fixed… Did you name it “tweaking” or “fiddling”? It’s fixed fiddling.

Tweaking is nicer than fiddling.

It’s fixed fiddling. And that course of occurs a pair occasions a 12 months by a means of submitting proposals, after which they go into the trustee room, we vote, our workers adopts them, they usually happen subsequent 12 months on the present.

How do you handle the strain between an expert group that creates the awards, skilled members who vote on the awards, after which making the Grammys for possibly probably the most mainstream attainable viewers on CBS, which is possibly probably the most mainstream of the printed networks? And all anyone actually desires to see is Taylor Swift or Beyoncé win each award. There’s a mismatch between fandom tradition on the one facet, notably in music, and stan tradition — to place a extra exact title on it — after which a bunch of music professionals saying, “Truly, this John Batiste album is the most effective album of the 12 months.” There’s an actual stability there that appears arduous to handle.

Stability is sweet. It’s a collision generally. It may be contentious; it may be controversial. However for us, and I’ll say for me personally, what I like about it’s there’s no different award prefer it as a result of it’s not about reputation. It’s not about who received probably the most streams or who had probably the most likes. It’s really concerning the people who find themselves within the business and who’re working day in and time out round music, listening to the information or songs or albums, after which deciding which one they suppose is the most effective. And it’s subjective. We all know that. It’s not a basketball sport; it’s all as much as the interpretation of the listener.

However what makes our present beneficial as of now, and possibly this isn’t at all times going to be the case, however as of now probably the most beneficial tv present with reference to music is as a result of it’s not nearly reputation. It’s not predictable. It’s concerning the voters giving the award for the 12 months to the artists or music that they love. And it additionally attracts a distinct kind of participation or consideration from the artist group as a result of it’s a really fascinating factor to have your friends let you know you’ve accomplished one thing particular in that 12 months, which I feel is significant. So there’s an additional gravitas or weight to the Grammys, which I feel interprets to the viewers.

How do you consider that within the context of the criticism that the Grammys typically will get from the bigger public or from listeners? I’ll offer you one particular instance simply because it’s proper in entrance of us as we head into Grammy season.

Beyoncé simply doesn’t win Album of the 12 months or File of the 12 months. These are the awards individuals need her to win as one of many main artists in our house, one of many cultural icons of our time. She simply doesn’t win them. I don’t know what else to say. We’re heading into nomination season. I feel this dialog goes to open up once more. What do you consider that? That’s what an enormous, loud set of customers desires from you from this present.

I hear them loud and clear. I’d love her to win Album of the 12 months. I’d additionally love a bunch of different individuals to win Album of the 12 months. I feel there’s nice music. I feel it’s additionally subjective. Beyoncé clearly has a ton of very loyal and supportive followers, for which I don’t blame them. Beyoncé’s gained a ton of Grammy Awards, so we actually respect her creativity and her artistry. There’s no query about that as a voting physique, there are various things that occur all year long that the voters generally resonate with in sure classes and different classes it doesn’t resonate. So, it’s actually arduous to foretell. 

I’m excited for this 12 months as a result of there’s been so many wonderful information. There’s been nice work by some wonderful artists, so I’m very optimistic for this 12 months. So far as who wins what, who will get snubbed, who’s pleased, and who’s mad, I can’t predict that. However what I can predict is that the voters will do their highest to hearken to the music to judge the music. The opposite factor I can say is we even have a really totally different voting physique now than we had three years in the past, 5 years in the past, or 10 years in the past.

That voting physique, that’s the factor you turned over, that’s this 12 months’s massive challenge you introduced? The change? You stated earlier that you simply requalified a hundred percent of the members. That’s one strategy to change the result — to vary the voters.

Nicely, the opposite means is to vary the awards themselves, which I’ll come to. I feel we pursue that on two tracks. However “we’re going to vary who’s voting” is one strategy to change them. Did you actively suppose, “Okay, we’re attending to among the flawed solutions in who wins these awards; we’ve received to vary management”?

It didn’t come a lot from the solutions. Possibly, personally, it did. I’ll again that up. However what it actually stemmed from was trying on the make-up of our voting physique after which trying on the make-up of music creators and who’s making it versus who’s consuming it versus who’s voting on it. And we needed to verify our membership was consultant of our music group. And after I received right here, it simply wasn’t. We didn’t have sufficient individuals of shade. We didn’t have sufficient ladies. We didn’t have sure illustration in sure genres, within the dance group, the rock group, or the nation. So we wanted to rebalance or tweak or, I can’t bear in mind the phrase you used, which I appreciated a lot… fiddle. We would have liked to fiddle with the membership.

We would have liked to fiddle with it and be sure that it was aligned with not simply the world however, extra importantly, and particularly, with music and the music group. We had to take a look at the genres. What genres are actually widespread? Do we now have sufficient members in these genres to judge it precisely? What are the brand new genres developing that we wish to be sure that we’re capable of interpret and vote for and get good outcomes? Then if that’s a brand new one, we now have to verify we now have members to help that. In any other case, having a brand new class with no person who can perceive the nuance or the positive factors of that style voting is a failed idea. And so we wish to be sure that the voters align with music and the way it’s being made and consumed.

You’re on the finish of the method now. You’ve requalified one hundred percent of individuals. You’ve added new members. Do you suppose you’re there? Do you suppose you might have room to develop, change, and evolve additional? To fiddle some extra?

We nonetheless have room to develop, no query. The place our objectives had been, we set these objectives fairly aggressively. We met them a bit early, really, however there’ll proceed to be new stretch objectives and new issues that I wish to accomplish with our membership. And our membership group is wonderful. They’re so proactive. And we now have nice committees round our membership group and elected management who’re actually keen about membership. And as we stated, till I hear your concepts for now, that’s the way in which we expect we will have an effect on the change within the outcomes, have an effect on the relevance of our awards, and proceed to develop the Grammy model on a world foundation.

The opposite means that no less than involves thoughts for me is the awards themselves, and possibly you’ll disagree. There are the halo awards: file, track, album. Beneath that, there are only a bunch of categorizations, Greatest Rap Album versus Greatest Rock Album. That suggests that these genres exist, and you’ll neatly kind albums into them. The Grammys solely removed Greatest City Album lately. That could be a class with an extended and loaded historical past. Possibly we don’t want that one anymore. However what the web has accomplished to music broadly is actually blur genres.

Utterly, endlessly blur genres in methods which might be thrilling, in methods which might be frankly complicated. And possibly the one style left is nation, which is why everybody’s making a rustic album this 12 months. As a result of you possibly can simply go there and say it’s totally different than what you had been doing earlier than. You may change these awards. You may simply requalify all of the genres, too, and say, “Listed here are some arduous traces.” Do you ever take into consideration that?

Nicely, I’d love to listen to your ideas extra whenever you speak about arduous traces. The objective for the style awards is to try to discover some guardrails during which to suit music, and that’s very arduous. You’re speaking about, once more, artwork after which somebody’s interpretation of artwork and easy methods to couple these within the totally different buckets so the individuals can consider them comparatively. So, we don’t wish to see hip-hop going towards rock as a result of they’re so dissimilar. Dissimilar audiences, I feel, dissimilar people who find themselves creating. However as music turns into increasingly blurred collectively — or mashed up, I assume I’ll say — there can be some conversations round how we’re going to title the awards, how we’re going to incorporate them in several fields, and who ought to be voting on them. Proper now, we now have totally different fields. So you might have a rock area, and underneath that can be a bunch of various genres of rock. Then, you’ll have a hip-hop area and a classical area. 

And the way in which our voting works is that we encourage our voters to vote in three fields. So that you don’t need anyone who doesn’t know something about nation simply going into that class as a result of their favourite artist is over there, or vice versa. You don’t want somebody voting in classical who solely is aware of one classical artist. So, the way in which we attempt to do it’s to have certified voters vote for the music that they like. Now, to your level, as music modifications and style partitions come down, we’ll be capable to open that up a bit bit extra. However that’s, once more, one thing that can be decided by our skilled music group, our members. They’ll say, “Hey, Harvey, you already know what? Membership group on the Academy, you already know what? We predict rock and jazz sound prefer it’s coming collectively. Let’s put that in a single class.” And when that occurs, as a result of our members are telling us these items, it can change the way in which we vote.

Are you able to simply do me a favor and attempt to outline pop music in 2024?

I really feel like I might outline hip-hop. I really feel like I might take a run at defining rock. I don’t know that I might outline pop music.

Pop music is a bit amorphous as a result of it modifications from 12 months to 12 months, and it has one thing to do with the time period and the title itself: “pop” or “widespread,” and it’s the style that tends to have the choruses, the sing-along melodies, the precise fashion of manufacturing and vocalists. It’s very troublesome as a result of there are a variety of information that get lumped into pop. And as a creator, I can create it, and I can present you on a piano, and I might sing it, however it’s a arduous definition to nail down. The voters are likely to do a extremely good job of that and ensuring that they’re voting for music they really feel ought to be in that class. And the way in which our labels, artists, and impartial labels submit, they submit their music the place they wish to be. And so if anyone seems like, “Hey, it is a pop file,” it’ll go into pop. And for probably the most half, that’s the place it’s evaluated.

I simply suppose there’s one thing so attention-grabbing taking place with genres due to the rise of the web, and we’re effectively into it now. I feel Taylor Swift wrote a bit concerning the loss of life of style 10 years in the past, I feel, for the Wall Avenue Journal. There simply appears to be chaos within the business that possibly followers have found out, however the business itself remains to be fighting it. Whether or not that’s Lil Nas X ages in the past or Cowboy Carter and Beyoncé this 12 months, it seems like we don’t fairly wish to draw these traces anymore, however we want them to be able to have issues just like the Grammy Awards or have sufficient awards to offer out as an alternative of 1 award for track.

And is that one thing you’re actively speaking about? Does that give you your members or the workers of the Recording Academy?

The place do these arguments actually come from? The place do these arguments land?

They land by saying, our members will inform us when it’s time. And the members, once more, are professionals. They’re all individuals working in studios and on excursions, in addition to engineers, writers, producers, artists, and singers. They’re the professionals. And once they say, “You already know what? We’re bored with genres, or we’re bored with separating individuals and placing them in bins,” then we’ll evolve. I can promise you that as a result of our group has by no means moved sooner or been extra fluid. We’ve by no means listened nearer to our members or our music group. So when that begins to occur, we’ll be sure that issues regulate.

Do you ever take into consideration simply doing random micro-genres? Yearly, there’s a micro-genre. I’ll simply decide drill. Drill music, it was a second. It’s now form of all over the place. You may hear it, actually, in all of hip-hop. So it has devolved into not being a micro-genre however simply being a sound that’s going to come back and go. Sounds come and go. However final 12 months, you may have simply been like, “We’re going to have a drill class, and right here’s the most effective drill artist of the 12 months, after which subsequent 12 months, possibly we gained’t have that class, and we’ll have one thing else.” Is that one thing that comes up? Is that an choice that you simply’ve considered? As a result of it’s one thing I’ve heard proposed.

Sure. And what must occur is, once more, the voters have to have experience within the style. So if we had sufficient voters who knew precisely what was occurring within the drill style of music, then they’d pop up and say, “Guys, we’re lacking a complete group of music right here. We have to honor it.” We’d create the class. We’d go up within the subsequent present, and they’d then vote. However with out that motion, with out sustainable momentum behind the style that interprets into members, we’d be popping new genres into the present with out the help and the underpinning that it must be related and correct.

If we put a drill class in now and we didn’t have sufficient voters and we had the flawed outcomes as a result of just a few random individuals began voting, “Oh, I do know this title, let me vote for them,” it could be disrespectful to the creators in that style. It might even be, I feel, detrimental to the model of the Academy and the Grammys. So when the time is correct for these new genres, I prefer to suppose that they’ll be there. We simply added the most effective African Efficiency. You see the rise of Amapiano and all of the totally different genres, together with Afro Beats, and we had the voters; we had the help. They proposed the award. It’s now in.

Let me ask you the large Decoder query, after which I wish to speak about that query in follow.

You clearly have a variety of selections to make. “What awards are we going to offer, and to whom?” are among the largest selections there. What’s your framework for making these selections?

The framework for making selections round awards could be very totally different from my private framework round selections that I’d prefer to implement on the Academy. Because it pertains to awards, it’s a really simple course of. Our members introduce the awards or different modifications and proposals. They’re mentioned by an acceptable committee, whether or not it’s planning and governance or awards and nominations; it goes by the committee system, they usually vote it up or down. It then goes to the board of trustees, and it will get voted up or down, and I don’t have a vote in these issues. I attempt to verify the conversations are entering into the precise path, however that basically comes right down to our board and our chair. As soon as these issues are put in place, then I’ve to determine easy methods to implement them. And that’s a reasonably simple course of round awards. However possibly the broader query you’re asking is: how do I CEO? How do I make the selections in my function? 

And I spend a variety of time listening, to be sincere. And I’m unsure what the reply is for among the different individuals you’ve interviewed or different CEOs, however I don’t fake to know greater than I do know. I’m a lifetime learner, not a knower. And so when it comes time for a call, I have a tendency to maneuver comparatively shortly. I don’t sit and stew. I feel perfection can generally get in the way in which of constructing progress. So I’ll hear, I’ll assemble my group, I’ll get the data that I have to make an informed and strategic choice, after which I’ll weigh it. Thus far, my instincts and my finger have been on the heartbeat of what our group needs or wants, and our members appear to be resonating with the selections which were taking place. But when my private style or emotions fall out of favor with that, then it could actually change my decision-making course of as a result of a variety of what I do is collect the data and determine from right here what I feel is correct.

It’s nearly like making music, to let you know the reality. I used to be a songwriter and producer for years. If you happen to’re making music for everyone else, and also you’re attempting to guess what’s subsequent, and also you’re attempting to make individuals pleased, you’re going to make the identical music that everybody else is making. However in the event you’re making music that turns you on, that excites you, that you simply love as a creator, and you then come out, so long as your tastes are aligned with the customers, you’ll win. So, I really feel the identical means in the way in which I prefer to run our group: a variety of listening, a variety of collaborating, after which attempting to make good, swift, considerate selections.

I really feel like a variety of the opposite CEOs I discuss to could be well-served in the event that they spent a while attempting to make some music versus simply attempting to make AI. [Laughs]

Let me put that into follow. You made a extremely massive choice very lately. This week, you introduced that you simply’re going to go away CBS. You’re going to take the Grammys to Disney and stream throughout Disney Plus, Hulu, and ABC. You’ve stated it already: CBS represents nearly a hundred percent of the income of the group. You’ve been on CBS for 50 years. That’s a giant change. That’s a giant choice — to go to a brand new companion, new platforms, and new distribution. Why make that call, and the way’d you make it?

Undoubtedly to see change, a transformational turning level in our group. It was a really troublesome choice, to be sincere, as a result of CBS has been a terrific companion. They’ve accomplished wonderful work with us, I imagine, for 54 exhibits. After I got here into this function, I noticed that we had 4 years till there could be a renegotiation, and I actually had a imaginative and prescient and a plan for the place I assumed the Academy wanted to go. And partially, that’s why they’ve me on this function: to come back to determine what that imaginative and prescient is and ensure we’re executing it, aligning with the board of trustees and our government management on the chief committee.

We all know what has to occur. The thought behind who’s going to be our companion to assist us get there was a giant a part of that decision-making course of. We met with a number of individuals. In the end, [we] ended up going with a distinct companion as a result of it actually aligned with our future imaginative and prescient: the place we needed to go and the way we needed to proceed to construct and develop within the group however, extra importantly, how we might serve extra individuals and execute in our mission in a broader, wider, deeper scale. So we’re actually excited concerning the future.

You needed to determine, although, proper? You come onto the job, you’re renegotiating 4 years, the deal’s up, you must stick to CBS, or you must go discover a new companion. After 50 years, it seems like possibly the default was to say to CBS, and the primary choice was to say, “Truly, I’m going to open this up.” How did you come to that second the place you thought, “I’ve received to verify I do know what my choices are?”

That was actually the decision-making issue. I needed to know what our choices had been and be sure that we had been exploring all prospects. I’m on this function briefly, for nonetheless lengthy I’m right here, however I’m actually a fiduciary and a steward of the model. I feel it’s an establishment that must be protected. It’s a not-for-profit. We’re not doing this apart from to serve music individuals. So the thought was: how can we attain the most effective deal? How can we discover the companion that the majority aligns with the long run imaginative and prescient of the group? So, it was a possibility to discover the market. I assumed that solely made sense, even with the 54-year historical past that we had with CBS, once more, being nice companions. I feel anybody would say you probably have the chance to see what else is there, it is best to have a look and attempt to discover that proper alignment going ahead.

Was there a bidding battle? Did Disney simply present up and say we’re going to pay greater than all people else? Did you might have different choices?

I’ll say we had different choices. Most likely gained’t go an excessive amount of deeper than that, simply out of respect for our companions on either side. CBS has been wonderful to work with, and I additionally actually stay up for seeing what’s going to come back subsequent in our new partnership.

After I take into consideration the worth that CBS introduced over that sweep of fifty-plus years, they’re one of many three massive broadcast networks in america. They’ve a Tiffany Community. They really broadcast in barely larger high quality than among the different networks, which I at all times admire about CBS. However that they had a distribution monopoly. They had been only a nationally broadcast TV community that got here into everybody’s houses. They had been on each cable system. That’s how TV used to work. That’s damaged, proper? Twine slicing is in every single place. Individuals aren’t even utilizing over-the-air antennas anymore.

That’s simply not the way it works. And the large distribution is in streaming. CBS does have some streaming within the combine. There’s a complete difficult story to be informed about Paramount and all that over there, however Disney’s a bit extra… It’s very difficult. [Laughs] Actually, the plot of Succession is embedded in me simply mentioning Paramount. Disney clearly has Disney Plus; they’ve received Hulu. Was that what you had been , “That is higher distribution to a youthful viewers, it’s extra secure, that is the way forward for how individuals are going to look at TV?” It does sound like “I have to make a profitable TV present” is the guts of the whole lot your group does.

Nicely, you’ve nailed it. Now we have to have the precise TV companion, not just for the income but in addition for the way forward for the model, the well being of the group, and for the great of the music group. What we do is attempt to elevate music and music creators, and the way we will do this on the widest attainable scale is one thing that I’m at all times fascinated about. Nonetheless, because it pertains to CBS and its streaming platform versus ABC or Disney, I simply should say that CBS has been nice. We’re going to make two extra exhibits with them. That they had a variety of very, very optimistic facets of why we’ve been with them and why we’d have thought-about going ahead, however we additionally had to take a look at the way forward for consumption. Now we have to take a look at the way forward for how individuals are going to soak up or absorb our present.

The place does it should be seen? How does it should be seen? These are all concerns that I’ve been having since I took this function 4 years in the past. So [we’ve] received a pair extra nice exhibits to go along with CBS — [I’m] trying ahead to February 2nd this 12 months. Then, after the following present, we’ll begin to consider what this new deal means. However up till then, you already know, your listeners and your viewers know, consumption is altering, tv is altering, digital, streaming, even social media, how that each one performs into how individuals are consuming content material. These are all issues — as you possibly can think about — that had been on the prime of our minds after we began fascinated about how we had been going to maneuver ahead over the following 10 years.

After I discuss to the CEOs of streaming platforms or different kinds of video platforms, the concept the large catalog isn’t as beneficial as issues which might be reside comes up time and again. You may see it proper now within the battles over how a lot to pay for sports activities rights. Ferocious battles. As a result of individuals will tune into sports activities, and they’re going to make an appointment to look at your service to look at sports activities. Award exhibits are proper up there within the combine, proper? Individuals will watch award exhibits, however award exhibits want one thing a bit totally different than sports activities. They want some status; they want some institutional heft. And it seems like, I don’t know, placing the Grammys on YouTube is simply not as fancy as being wherever close to ABC and Disney. Possibly even placing the Grammys on Netflix isn’t as fancy as being someplace close to Disney and ABC. Did that issue into your decision-making?

Yeah, all of it did. The heft, as you known as it, was necessary within the gravitas behind the award and the place it’s consumed, and the way individuals are going to look at it. There’s nonetheless one thing distinctive and particular about community tv to a variety of customers. To different units of customers, they actually couldn’t care much less about that. So, there’s a stability or positive line that I needed to verify we walked with any companion that we be a part of forces with.

Let me push on that just a bit bit as a result of there’s a rigidity there. The most important distribution you may have is YouTube. All people has it. Possibly you don’t actually have a option to have it anymore. It’s simply there. YouTube is simply there. All people has it. If you happen to needed the most important attain in your award present, you’d simply put it on YouTube. However that possibly wouldn’t offer you as a lot income, and it wouldn’t offer you as a lot model shine. What’s the phrase? Halo. Halo. It wouldn’t offer you as a lot income, and it in all probability wouldn’t offer you as a lot model halo versus Disney, which is Disney. Is that an precise trade-off you made? “I might get extra viewers on YouTube, however I’d get extra model Halo and maybe income from Disney”?

They’re all trade-offs, to let you know the reality. And that’s the stability; it’s the juggle that we now have to do. How can we attain probably the most customers or viewers in order that we will monetize the present? But in addition, how can we showcase and elevate artists so the most individuals see them? It’s a finely navigated line between these two issues, and there are a variety of different concerns as effectively: the historical past of the model sheen, accessibility, and totally different territories world wide the place there’s a presence or a spotlight for us. So, there have been a variety of elements that went into the calculus of deciding the place the precise residence was for us. Hopefully, we really feel like we made a good selection, however I assume we’ll see within the subsequent 10 years.

When you consider shifting to extra internet-native distribution, there’s only a bunch of different stuff you are able to do. You can also make it extra interactive; you may lower it up into totally different items. Is that stuff you’re fascinated about to reinvent the idea of an award present in that means?

One thousand p.c. We all know customers are altering the way in which they devour, and their habits are evolving always. So we’re at all times going to attempt to be on the slicing fringe of that. However once more, balancing that with ensuring we’re showcasing totally different genres of music and it’s not only one style. You’re not simply seeing solely a sure group of creators. We additionally wish to be sure that we’re honoring the custom and the historical past of the model. In order that together with attempting to innovate, attempting to verify we’re assembly viewers the place they’re and matching their habits with what we’re creating or producing, is one thing, once more… These items isn’t straightforward. None of it’s simple. And if I had been to have assumed the function or taken the reins of the group and stated, “We’re going to do the identical factor. We’re simply going to march straight forward; we’re going to maintain making the identical present.” I feel that might’ve been the simpler route, for positive. However we’re not doing that. 

We’re the whole lot: each a part of our expertise, each a part of our present, each a part of how we serve our members, how we produce the present. Possibly you’ve seen over the previous couple of years how we seat our artists, how we seat the music group, how we have a good time them, how we elevate them, the tone. We produce in a loving means. And I do know that sounds loopy, however we produce in a means that brings individuals collectively and tries to have camaraderie or collaboration in our group. And I feel meaning one thing to the viewer. So whether or not meaning a three-hour present, a three-and-a-half-hour present going ahead, or shorter variations or clips, we’re going to be all that and doing a variety of new issues over the approaching years.

Yeah, that was my different query. Broadcast tv imposed a self-discipline on TV manufacturing, whether or not it’s “We’re going to have thirty-minute sitcoms as an alternative of infinite, you possibly can have a look at your cellphone streaming exhibits,” or whether or not it’s, “Boy, this award present has gone on for a very long time, and it’s time to wrap it up,” there’s a self-discipline that was imposed by the distribution. Streaming simply doesn’t have that. You actually might have 10 Grammy Award exhibits a 12 months. You may have an all-day lengthy Grammy Award present and present individuals highlights later. However the compactness and the self-discipline of that is the present, and it begins and ends, which lends some rigidity to it and a few stakes to it. I do know you’re saying that’s open, and also you’re fascinated about it, however that appears necessary to protect.

Nilay, you’re a good man. You’re asking me all of the questions that I ask myself, and I’m going to come back get you to work with me, man; you understand how to consider these things. However it’s actually, actually on the prime of my thoughts, for me and for our group, as to how we proceed to be related. As a result of in the event you do the identical factor time and again, it’s not cool. Nobody’s going to take it. Nobody’s going to be enthusiastic about it. So the arduous a part of it’s, and I hate to be, once more, tremendous primary about it, however it’s income. Ensuring we’re balancing, being forward-looking, fascinated about what’s subsequent, how individuals are consuming, and the way we will proceed to monetize the model and the present.

Once more, not as a result of we wish to make a revenue; that’s not the motivation. The agenda is to generate extra income in order that we will push it again into the business and again into the group. For us, it’s concerning the well being and the uplifting of music. These items is necessary. Music is so dang necessary, particularly proper now, possibly greater than ever with the way in which the nation’s gone, and the world’s gone, with so many disparate concepts and opinions. However I’ve seen it, Nilay, after I journey and after I see different elements of the world listening to music or listening to artists. We’d have a loopy disagreement, however when the music comes on, all people’s dancing and clapping and singing, and it simply opens up individuals’s minds and their eyes.

So, due to the ability of music and due to my perception and the Academy’s perception within the energy of music, we’re going to do the whole lot we will to try to be sure that we’re supporting it, we’re lifting it up, we’re showcasing it, and giving it an opportunity to do what it does. And if meaning shortening the present, we’ll do this. If meaning lengthening the present, extra artists, much less artists, totally different genres, extra voters, we’re going to proceed doing that work to vary and evolve every single day in order that we will maintain doing what we have to do to elevate music individuals.

Let’s speak about what’s occurring with music and the place the cash comes from on this business as a result of that appears underneath a variety of stress as effectively. It doesn’t look like anybody is aware of the reply, which is why I like paying a lot consideration to the music business. We went by the Napster revolution. We’re on the tail finish of what seems like… Not the tail finish. We’re at what seems like a plateau in streaming. Everybody has moved to streaming, and we perceive how the economics work. That appeared secure for a minute. Oops, right here comes AI, and that may upend the whole lot as soon as once more. There’s a variety of work in AI in music proper now. There’s a variety of controversy. There are some fairly good diss tracks made with AI.

Final 12 months, Reservoir Media’s Golnar Khosrowshahi got here on Decoder, and he or she stated, “AI is on a collision course with the music business.” And she or he’s shopping for catalogs left and proper. She’s doing it. And she or he says, “It is a collision course.” Final 12 months, you stated music with AI-generated components could be Grammy-eligible. So this is a crucial test mark. Okay, we’re going to permit a few of this in right here. The place do you suppose we’re proper now? We’ve gone by BBL Drizzy, and we’ve gone by some AI-generated beats. There’s a handful of items of laws that possibly we must always speak about. However the place do you suppose the state of play is correct now?

The state of play is so unsure. I’m involved as a result of AI, because it pertains to human creativity, scares me to loss of life. I do know it has a variety of energy and potential to reinforce and amplify human creativity, however proper now, we don’t have guardrails in place. We don’t have any methods or processes arrange in order that human creators could be protected. So, the state of play is that we’ve received to get to work as an business. And I do know a variety of the neatest individuals are investing in AI, which I completely perceive as a result of it’s so highly effective and has a lot potential.

However for me as a musician, as somebody who additionally represents 25,000 members and music individuals from world wide, I wish to be sure that human creativity is protected, for all the explanations I simply stated: the significance of music and the power for us to inform tales and alter hearts and minds. I feel the human part to that’s actually, actually dang necessary. So a bit nervous that we haven’t received it sorted out. However I’m additionally optimistic, to be sincere, Nilay, as a result of human creators usually are not like computer systems. We take the chaos and the uncertainty in life and the stuff that AI hates, and we make unimaginable artwork from it. We’re capable of dig down deep into a few of our most artistic areas, pull out the following wonderful factor, and make nice artwork that I don’t suppose any laptop goes to match.

As a lot as we’re nervous and nervous about it, I don’t suppose you possibly can inform me that AI can create Songs within the Key of Life, Nevermind, or Illmatic. I don’t see it taking place. So, I wish to be certain that we’re ready to make use of AI, and I’m not an AI hater. I feel it’s received nice potential. I’ve been utilizing it for eight or 9 years in several varieties. I’ve at all times been an early adopter of recent tech, so I’m with it. I get it. However we now have to verify human creativity is protected, and we now have an opportunity to verify we’re remunerated correctly, we now have correct approvals, and it’s credited correctly. These are the issues which might be actually necessary to me.

So, I have a look at the business proper now.  I introduced up “BBL Drizzy.” I feel that beat was made with Udio, which is likely one of the AI song-generation instruments. Udio, after which its competitor, Suno, had been sued by a bunch of file labels as a result of they ingested an enormous catalog of music to be able to construct these instruments and prepare on [them]. That looks like a comet that’s going to hit the earth. That loss will get resolved someway, after which we’ll all reside within that framework. Why let the individuals utilizing these instruments, when nobody is aware of how the cash works, or even when they’re acceptable or authorized, be eligible for Grammys now, earlier than the business has sorted out the morality or economics of these instruments?

The identical means that we let the music that has samples be eligible, or we let the music that has synthesizers, Auto-Tune, or Professional Instruments be eligible. It’s a expertise, an evolution that has allowed individuals to do extra, create in another way, suppose in another way, and make sounds we’ve by no means heard earlier than. So, for us to attract a line within the sand and say, “If you happen to used synthetic intelligence, you might be ineligible,” could be, I feel, short-sighted. And I feel it could additionally lower down on a variety of the music that’s being created and submitted. Additionally, the place would you draw the road? There’s AI in a lot of the software program we use now for analyzing and doing mixes and sound design, not even simply the generative AI that’s making music. The finer level is that we’ll permit AI to be utilized, however we’re not going to honor AI within the sense that if AI is performing a track, it’s our guidelines that we’ll not give the efficiency an award.

If AI is writing the track, we won’t give an award for the songwriting part. So, if, for instance, you wrote a track, it was a gorgeous composition, it had the most effective lyrics, greatest music, and greatest chord progressions, and also you had AI sing it, you may submit it. It’s not going to win for singing. It might win for songwriting. Conversely, in the event you had AI simply write a track as a terrific track, however some vocalist sang it or rapped on it, they usually carried out the heck out of it, I’m not going to penalize the human creativity that went into that. So, I’m not going to offer it an award for the songwriting, however I’ll give it an award for the efficiency. And that’s the way in which our guidelines are at present. I’m positive it’s going to vary. The stuff is shifting so shortly, however for now, that’s how the Academy is shifting.

You’re a songwriter; I’m assured that a few of your work is in a few of these coaching databases. How do you’re feeling about that?

I imagine there must be an understanding of what these fashions are coaching on, and I’m unsure precisely to what degree it can come down, whether or not there’s compensation cost or crediting.  I do suppose one thing has to vary, and I don’t imagine that individuals’s private copy written materials ought to simply be used or accessed by everybody to do something they need. So, we now have to come back to a bottom-line understanding. There are pretty educated fashions on the market, people who find themselves licensing teams of music or catalogs to coach AI, and I feel that’s a great place to start out, however there’s loads to speak about. That’s in all probability a complete different present that we might dive a bit deeper into.

Yeah, I’m simply your record of credit. You’ve received Future’s Youngster, you’ve received Britney Spears, it’s all in right here. Do you suppose that that stuff ought to be compensated if Suno and Udio are utilizing it to coach their fashions?

It’s a sophisticated topic. So I feel there’s some actual discuss that should occur round that. Ought to or not it’s compensated on the coaching facet? At the least we have to know what it’s coaching on, how a lot of it’s getting used. There’s a variety of nuance to that query.

By the way in which, for the listener, it is best to simply go have a look at Harvey’s Wikipedia web page as a result of I named two out of like 500 model title artists that you simply’ve labored with. It’s an unimaginable record. I ought to have simply been asking about that the entire time.

The way in which that you’d resolve this drawback economically within the framework of the regulation that we now have proper now could be to assign possession to one thing like your voice, the way in which you sound, or your likeness. The Recording Academy was in help of a invoice that handed in Tennessee known as the Elvis Act, which is a good title that provides voices to likeness protections. I learn among the protection of that invoice and it says, “Hey, there’s no carve out in right here for Elvis impersonators. We’re going to unravel the AI drawback, and we’d have simply made Elvis impersonators unlawful in Tennessee.” How do you see that stability? That’s robust.

There’s no excellent answer or magic bullet to any of these things, particularly the pace at which it’s shifting. We’re actually happy with the laws that’s been launched and handed in a few totally different states, however now we’re pushing for federal laws with the No Fakes No Frauds Act within the Home and the Senate.

However that’s harmful, to make Elvis impersonators federally unlawful.

That’s not the intention.

I do know, however how would you write that regulation to say: “A robotic can’t sound like Elvis, however this man can?”

Once more, there’s a variety of nuances. There’s no excellent invoice. None of those payments are actual. Everyone seems to be attempting to compensate and accommodate the wants of lots of people who’ve considerations and fears. In fact, we don’t wish to stop somebody from impersonating Elvis, however we do wish to stop individuals from impersonating artists or singers and utilizing their voices with none type of cost, approval, or the precise crediting. And these payments are begins. I’m positive they’ll be revised. I’m positive there’ll be new payments and new issues enacted. However proper now, we’ve received bipartisan, bicameral help that there must be some laws that helps and protects human creativity and artistry. So, for us, it’s step one.

However even these two stuff you stated, “We don’t wish to cease Elvis impersonators, however we don’t need individuals to make use of artist’s voices with out compensation.” Yeah, meaning the Elvis impersonators should pay. Simply that little primary factor. “Don’t use my voice for that impersonation.” Does it matter to you whether or not it’s AI, an Elvis impersonator, or a Britney Spears impersonator?

It does, however legal guidelines additionally defend sure utilization of different individuals’s voices, even when it’s one other human doing it. You may’t fake to be an artist after which monetize that in sure methods. So, there are legal guidelines within the books that stop that from taking place.

As the cash strikes round within the music business, we’ve tried to unravel that drawback in several methods. So streaming charges went down, and now all of us argue about songwriting credit to verify among the pennies come again to the unique artists as a result of the streaming isn’t paying these artists. I’ll offer you an instance solely as a result of Olivia Rodrigo’s Guts tour film simply hit Netflix. So, I noticed a bunch of protection of this once more. Taylor Swift got here and took her credit score on “Deja Vu.” Controversial. I’m already enjoying with hearth now. The 2 fandoms are going to come back for me. However that’s the factor that occurred. It’s very controversial. After which Elvis Costello, who’s certainly one of my favourite artists, got here out and stated, “Okay, I agree that Olivia’s track, ‘Brutal,’ sounds loads like ‘Pump It Up.’”

After which his quote was, “That is positive by me. That’s how rock and roll works. You are taking the damaged items of one other thrill and make a brand-new toy. That’s what I did. I didn’t discover any purpose to go after them legally for that, as a result of I feel it could be ludicrous. Different individuals clearly felt in another way about songs on that file.”

So we’ve now created a situation the place it’s the artist’s alternative whether or not they go after different artists for utilizing issues like chord progressions or loud bridges. How do you see that resolving on the planet of AI? It’s already chaos with out AI, and now we’re utilizing AI instruments after we’re saying the reply to AI is to create extra possession of issues like voices, chord progressions, and sounds.

It’s all going to proceed to be a multitude till we get it sorted out. As a result of sure, it’s troublesome.

That is likely one of the most candid solutions to that query I’ve ever received.

I feel that’s the most effective I can provide you as a result of, as you stated, sure artists have a tendency to say possession in another way than others. Additionally, artists generally have publishers or file firms that personal items of their catalog that are typically extra aggressive than some artists may naturally be. However as you begin introducing AI, until we will perceive the place it’s coming from, what it’s replicating or studying from, and attempting to simulate, it’s going to be actually dang arduous to determine the place the cash must go or how the cash can circulation. I’ll let you know one story. I met with the top of the Copyright Workplace. She was a tremendous lady. She got here to my studio, and we began pulling up among the generative AI platforms, and I used to be exhibiting her how they labored.

This was in all probability eight months in the past. She hadn’t actually been uncovered to a lot of it. I typed in a number of phrases, and we made a monitor. I stated, “Is that copyrightable?” And she or he says, “No, it’s not. It has to have human interplay or human involvement.” I stated, “Nicely, I typed within the immediate.” She’s like, “Oh, effectively, Harvey, that’s not sufficient.” So, I took the identical monitor and I typed a response. I stated, “Nicely, change the important thing, change the tempo, and alter these three lyrics.” And I despatched it again to the platform, and it despatched again a brand new track. I stated, “Now, is that copyrightable?” And she or he says, “No, it’s getting nearer, however I don’t suppose it’s sufficient.”

I did three rounds of prompts, [the track] got here again [as a] barely totally different track. And she or he stated, “Okay, I feel that’s proper. I feel that’s human interplay.” So, none of that is found out. The pinnacle of the Copyright Workplace, who I assumed was wonderful and unimaginable, and I like the truth that she was and cared sufficient to come back to my studio… However the reality [is] we don’t have an understanding of how this strikes ahead and the way we defend creators, whether or not that’s the songwriters you talked about, or folks that simply had catalogs from 20 years in the past. We’re not going to have good clear solutions till we get these understandings.

However these understandings come from litigation, proper? We’re going to should go combat this out. Somebody’s going to should sue the copyright workplace, or another person goes to should sue. One artist goes to should sue one other. The labels are going to sue the platforms.

If we will advocate correctly and loudly sufficient, even throughout the tech platforms, all through the labels and publishers, journalists, and podcast hosts, and are available to an understanding of how this must perform, as complicated as that could be. We will begin to handle a few of it internally. The identical factor occurred after we began sampling different individuals’s information. We had a bunch of hit information that included different individuals’s samples — and that ran its course. We form of found out the way it wanted to be handled and dealt with. [It’s the] identical factor with streaming. There are issues that individuals are placing in music everywhere in the web and on streaming providers, and we’ve gotten to a spot the place we’re barely higher, [but] there’s nonetheless work to do there. I imagine we’ll come to some options round AI and the way we will all equally or equitably take part within the income.

Can I really simply make the comparability to sampling and the way that performed out? Since you lived it very instantly. I watched it as a younger copyright lawyer, and it appeared just like the factor that received us by was that it is a fairly closed ecosystem. There are solely so many producers and labels, and the variety of labels is simply getting smaller. There are solely so many clearing homes and artists which might be going to attempt to clear a pattern. There are solely so many managers and legal professionals. So all these individuals might discuss, and you may say, “I have to clear the pattern,” or within the case of some very well-known songs, overlook, after which somebody might present up and get all the cash later, which has occurred extra occasions than not. But it surely’s a closed ecosystem.

Very totally different from AI. You’re proper.

AI is that this huge, open ecosystem. On the prime of it are Mark Zuckerberg, Sundar Pichai at Google, and Sam Altman, who simply don’t appear to offer a shit. If you happen to’re some lawyer for some artist and also you attempt to roll up on Sam Altman, he’s going to say, “Look, I stole Scarlett Johansson’s voice. What are you going to do to me?” Is that going to play out the identical means, or is it going to be messier? As a result of it looks like nobody has any leverage over these firms.

I’m positive it’ll be messier as a result of it’s a wider-reaching situation. However I do suppose there’s a means. Possibly I’m overly optimistic in rose-colored glasses, however I feel individuals notice the significance of music, possibly broader, the significance of artwork, and AI has an impression throughout all of the totally different disciplines of artistry. And if we will proceed to emphasise its worth and significance and level out that this has the potential to actually be dangerous to it, I’ve to imagine, in my human coronary heart, that anyone would need that to be addressed. They’d wish to give you an answer that made sense, whether or not it’s the blokes you talked about or heads of different firms.

I simply suppose there’s a strategy to do it. I do know all people’s attempting to construct their firms and create worth for his or her traders and shareholders. There are a variety of ranges to this, however on the base, it’s music, man. It’s music. We will’t have a wild, wild west round copyright and possession and mental property protections. Stuff must be accomplished correctly in order that we will proceed to inform these tales and have these feelings and the guts and soul behind these songs. In any other case, what are we doing? We’re simply going to have the pc make the whole lot. Now, in the event you have a look at AI for different issues that are-

Did you discuss to Sam Altman? As a result of that could be his reply.

I’m hoping to. He has a favourite artist. I do know he does. He has a band he grew up listening to his entire life in his bed room whereas he was programming some laptop. He loves anyone, or he learn a guide that mattered, or he noticed a bit of artwork that moved him. All people has. Not all people, however most individuals. I imagine in human creativity. I imagine in AI and the ability that it has to reinforce and amplify human creativity, and there’s a means that they will coexist. I imagine.

A theme of this dialog for me is the strain you might have between your members who’re skilled musicians and a part of that group, and an viewers of customers and followers.

Each time we write about AI, the elements of our viewers which might be skilled creatives are livid. I’m fairly positive that we received extra responses to my interview with the CEO of Adobe that principally added as much as “You need to have arrested him,” greater than some other episode of Decoder we’ve ever accomplished. As a result of individuals had been simply mad that there’s generative AI in Photoshop. What do your members say about this? Are they as upset? Are they as livid?

Our members are cut up. There are a variety of members who say, “AI is the satan; don’t let it in the home.” And they’re fearful, rightfully so. After which there’s one other group of our members which might be actually excited concerning the energy and the potential of AI, they usually’re all in. They’re creating by utilizing it. They’re doing the whole lot they will utilizing AI. And neither facet is flawed. Once more, the great thing about music, artwork, or creativity [is that] all people creates in another way. So, my function is a troublesome one. It’s to try to serve our membership and our music group pretty and in a means that permits for a brilliant future for our creators. Whether or not that’s utilizing AI, limiting AI, or ensuring there are tips round AI — it’s to be decided. However my focus, after I get up, is to verify our human creativity is wholesome, it’s allowed to endure, and we will proceed to make a residing.

Now we have a complete group of people that make their cash, their residing, pay their lease, and deal with their youngsters by creating artwork. And we now have one other technology that’s developing that desires to do the identical factor as a result of they know the way we categorical ourselves. We all know how music can generally heal and unite individuals, and generally individuals… I used to be on a airplane the opposite day, and there was a lady sitting subsequent to me, a few seats over, on a laptop computer, and he or she was crying. I assumed she was typing a letter to anyone. She was programming in logic on her keyboard, crying. So that is remedy; that is expression. It is a human emotion. And so I wish to be sure that we’re realizing, sure, AI is part of that. How can or not it’s built-in in a means that’s accountable and affordable?

Yeah. Nicely, Harvey, I received to allow you to go, however I can’t allow you to go with out asking one query I’ve been dying to ask you the entire time. Who’s a younger artist on the come-up that individuals ought to be being attentive to? As a result of I do know you might have a full view of this business.

I do. I’ve a view of among the coolest and greatest new artists in music. One in all my favourite elements of the job is getting to satisfy these creators. However I’m going to damage the query as a result of it could be irresponsible of me to let you know who the following particular person was or anyone that I like as a result of there are simply so many. And I don’t need it to appear as if it’s an Academy endorsement. However I’ll say this: I feel there are extra new creators making music, making nice artwork than within the historical past of music due to the entry, due to the expertise, due to the younger lady I noticed on the airplane programming on a laptop computer like this, due to the truth that you possibly can put music out with out gatekeepers, with out limitations to entry. You already know the quantity of songs which might be being created and launched; it’s astronomic, and it’s prolific.

And so I’ll say, to your query, there are nice new artists in hip-hop. I’ve now heard a brand new crop of unimaginable rock bands, which I feel we’ve had a bit little bit of a scarcity of. I’ve heard… Clearly that [there’s a] transfer into nation and a few nice new artists. I like the way you’re seeing genre-bending artists creating various kinds of music in these genres. Jazz. There’s a rebirth round jazz that I’m loving and I’m actually enthusiastic about. So I imply, I don’t know. I can geek out all day on music and new music, however it is a matter that I like to speak about. Nice music, nice new artists, and the way we’re going to have a good time them.

All proper. I did my greatest. That was the toughest query I might consider, which is why I saved for the tip. I’m going to have to seek out you; we’re going to have to speak about music another time, only for an hour. Thanks a lot for coming to Decoder.